WHAT A PAIN

[backupdump002]

Before I go to bed, here's something I was thinkin' about in the shower:

Internet, how often do you find someone's typing habits affecting your opinion of them? I mean, there's the obvious ones where if someone speaks in near-incomprehensible chatspeak and fangirl Japanese or whatever then you avoid them like the plague, but what about smaller things like, say, what smilies they use, or whether they type in all lowercase, or if they "roleplay" while chatting (*grins*, *laughs*, *nods*, etc), or if they keyboard mash a lot.

For example, say someone used perfect grammar and never used smilies or caps or anything like that, and everything they wrote always seemed calm and thought-out. Would you think that person was intelligent, or would you think they were arrogant or unapproachable? What if someone else were to (in essence) say the exact same things that person said, only with a less serious typing style (caps, sarcastic italics/bolding, whatever). Would you think they were smarter or easier to talk to than the other person? What other quirks have an effect on you?

I'd offer my thoughts, but I don't wanna risk coloring someone else's opinion or anything, so I'll wait :V LET ME KNOW, I'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THIS A LOT FOR SOME REASON

Edit: Oh yeah, and what about you? Are there certain smilies you refuse to use because you feel they give off a certain impression, or anything like that? IF SO, THROW THAT IN TOO

Comments

[funkicarus.livejournal.com]

as long as someone is fairly coherant in their RP, i don't mind departures from conventions. if you drop the last period on the last sentance of your post (ie, "She picked up the hydrospanner and got to work. This was going to take a while") or skimp on your caps ocassionally (ie, "Joe says, 'fine by me.'") i don't really care. but.

i really don't like emoticons in RP. i mean, sometimes things happen where an emoticon is acceptable, but just because you're typing up a wacky post doesn't mean it has to end in XD or :D or whatever. similarly, not every single wacky thing needs to be in ALLCAPS! in my world 'wacky' humor breaks down like this.

"she ran down the road, A SECRET AGENT :D" <- not funny.
"she ran down the road, galumphing along with all the stealth of a jar of peanut butter that has just been turned into a secret agent." <- funny. i don't even know why, maybe just the level of creativity involved.

caps can be fine sometimes, but jesus, i should not be seeing caps as someone's alternative for a blinking neon sign saying "APPLAUSE."

i also really, really hate people who just fail to use quotation marks. i'm sorry, but this sentance:

he barged into the room firing wildly everyone get out i've got it!

makes no fucking sense to me.

really though, if it's inside quotation marks? all's fair in love, war, and RP. your character can have the most broken and incoherant grammar in the world...just so long as it's evident that's how your character talks, and not how you mangle the language.

also wow i totally thought this was a post on bad_rpers_suck, hence why i got so ranty. SORRY DOX DURHARURRRRR

[draco-leonis.livejournal.com]

to give a non-RP view
I have a friend who's an english major who types perfectly in AIM, and sometimes I find myself mixed between the two extremes you mentioned.

With others, it all depends on what they use or how they use it. SOMETIMES IT'S FUN TO BE DORKY/RETARDED AND JUST TYPE LIEK DIS.
But I digress, that's generally with already friends.

I dunno. I think there's a difference between first impressions online and general conversation. Like, I become a lot more formal with certain people than I do with others.

YOU'VE POSED INTERESTING QUESTIONS. More thought is required.

[neutraltwin.livejournal.com]

I find people talking entirely in lowercase on AIM and such irritates me, but not a whole lot. Going all HI THERE CAPSLOCK is fine too, since I enjoy being retarded. :V

On emoticons, I think those overcomplicated Japanese ones lower my opinion of people a lot. You really can't just use :D instead of (>o-o>) or something like that? You already know my stance on :) as well.

Personally, I never EVER use lol or omg in conversation. They just irk me a little, though I've got no problem having other people use them. I-I do overuse certain emoticons, though. :B

[marigold-tales.livejournal.com]

Uhhhh. If you consistently do not spell things right, and that's nearly every word, or you shorten nearly every word, then I come upon the opinion that you are lazy. Or txt lol too much.

Other than that, no, I don't have much of an opinion. I use "xD"s a lot, but the acronym lol, if used seriously, annoys the HECK out of me. A simple "hah" will do.

[dia-aren-marie.livejournal.com]

I AM SO GLAD I AM NOT THE ONLY PERSON WHO THINKS ABOUT THIS

The only thing that really irks me is KAWAII DESU NEEEEEEEEEEEEE =^________^=. Like, I don't mind emoticons or the occasional japanese word at all, but it's when it's OVERBOARD that I want to stab things.

Randomly, I really dislike the emoticon "-_-". I don't know why. It makes me feel like the person I'm talking to is cold and not interested at all in talking to me. D: It's always been a weird irk of mine. I know there's another emoticon that really bugs me but I haven't seen it in so long that I've forgotten about it.

[wishwashing.livejournal.com]

personally, i find that it's easier to talk to someone who doesn't type with perfect grammar and capitalization. i feel like i have to match their etiquette or else they'll look down on me.

i'm fine with emotes and shortened words and pretty much everything, as long as it is used in moderation. if you need to get out something fast, why take the time to completely write it out if they'll understand it either way? i know most users on LJ are against me on this, but words like omg and lol do not bother me at all. we're not writing college essays, people.

[puddinchan.livejournal.com]

It depends, really. If that person uses correct grammar and spelling, but what they're saying is stupid/unclever, then that annoys me. I usually use chatspeak to make fun of chatspeak, or when I'm asking my sister what a sentence means because I can't understand the use of chatspeak. All of my friends use it on MSN, and that REALLY annoys me.

I also hate it when people abbrieviate everything because they can't be bothered to type out the whole word. That is incredibly stupid.

[sarshin.livejournal.com]

oh man I use emoticons way too often and abbreviations and I often ignore capitalization and grammar and general cohesiveness and I'm pretty sure I come across as retarded or something idk 8V

[sarshin.livejournal.com]

FFFFFFFFFFF ALSO CAPSLOCK

But anyway to actually answer the question, I don't actually care how someone types something. My concentration is more on what they type, you know? The only exception are the stiff, stodgy people who type perfectly without emoticons and whatnot; they're, you know, stiff and stodgy - or just not retarded, whatever.

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

Okay, I hope this doesn't double post.

Ohhhhhhhh my yes. I mean, on the internet, your words are pretty much your representation of yourself.

All lowercase is the big thing. That makes me go D: and usually skip past it... if we're talking about a whole comment. See, it has a specific tone. Hard to describe... hmmmm... I guess it sounds unformed and indistinct. So if there's an all-lowercase part in a comment that otherwise shows that someone can use the shift key, I assume they're going for that tone. If someone makes a whole post that departs from their habit and uses all lowercase, I read it in that tone, too, and I figure they're really upset (any length posts) or really excited (very short posts). Depending on context, obviously. That doesn't bug me, either. But when someone does it all the time, it's like trying to listen to someone who mumbles along in a monotone all the time, and whose sentences run into each other... just like when someone types in CAPSLOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL it sounds like they're shouting.

No punctuation is another one. It's like all-lowercase, except it means I "hear" their words without pauses or inflection. Sentences without periods sound like they have no end, like the person just stopped in the middle of the sentence. If they lack commas where they should have them, it sounds like they're talking quickly without inflection or pausing for breath. That's tiring to read too much of (although, again, a short stylistic bit doesn't bother me, and it doesn't bug me when it's obviously just a marker that someone's really emotional at the moment). A lack of apostrophes for contractions makes the "contraction" not look like a word. A missing apostrophe for a possessive that should have one turns it into a plural.

Other stuff, though, like smilies, asterisks, italics, capslock, abbreviations and stuff like lol (mixed in with normal text, I mean)... they all have a different tone and flavor. If someone uses them a lot, I just assume they've been on the internet a while and treat it a little more like talking to someone face-to-face.

(Aside: I have different standards for IMing--a higher threshold for smilies and asterisk-gestures, more tolerance for incomplete sentences or sentences split over several lines as punctuation, even more tolerance for misspellings if they're corrected--because of just that point. IMing is more immediate and feels more like a face-to-face conversation. You can't say what you want to say in long, multiparagraph comments... or at least, the IM software tends to discourage it. You have length limits, formatting that way is more of a pain, and you know your comment is probably going into a much smaller window (so that if your comment is too long, they might have to scroll up to read it). With LJ it's better to make longer comments and reply to several things at once, especially when the other person might not be there at that moment... if you treat it like an IM conversation, things will go very slowly. Also, with IM, short reaction comments (like "XD!!" or "*nodnod*") just show you're listening and reacting. On LJ, though, a comment consisting of "*nods*" doesn't really invite someone to continue, because they've probably already made whatever points they wanted to make. On IM that stuff is useful because something long will necessarily be broken up over many "individual" comments, so if you just let the other person talk it might seem like you're not listening, since you can react between their comments. Of course you don't want to interrupt without a reason, but smilies and gestures don't do that. They're just minor feedback. It mimics what you get when you're talking to someone face-to-face and they look at you and nod and stuff versus staring off into the distance.)

Over the character limit! More to come.

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

Would you think that person was intelligent, or would you think they were arrogant or unapproachable?

Nah, at most I'd assume they weren't much into... er... internet culture... and that they'd formed their writing habits somewhere else. I'd be less inclined to use smilies, abbreviations, gestures, or memes, and I'd be less inclined to use my icon to say something. I'd say, "Ha!" instead of "Lol!" and other things like that. I might also see them as older, since the older someone is, the less likely it is that they formed their writing habits on the internet and the more likely it is they formed them writing essays for school, or writing memos for work, or writing letters. Anywhere that's more formal and less immediate, in other words. If their writing had grammatical or idiomatic quirks, I might conclude that English wasn't their first language.

A few final words on formatting. Bolding in the middle of a sentence (not for headers or ETAs, though) makes something look like an advertisement. An advertisement for the circus. Or for something that has an infomercial. Probably because novels don't tend to use boldface at all, except possibly for chapter titles.... Using a funky font (or colored text) for all their posts/comments doesn't make someone look more unique; it just makes them look like they're trying too hard. I don't read these unless I think there are lulz to be had. Using an increased font size is almost the same as capslock. It's like someone speaking loudly, though not necessarily with a "shouting" intonation. I skip these, too. Using a smaller font makes it look like you're whispering or muttering. I have a high tolerance for this as a "tone" thing (hey, I do it too--I think it's more effective than "*whispers*"), but a low tolerance for it if there doesn't seem to be any tone-based reason for it. Once I saw someone make a post in a community entirely in a reduced font... when people bitched, rightly, that it was harder to read, they got all huffy and said they were just trying to make their post look shorter. @_@ That's what the cut tag's for! So that's another thing I skip past, because it's harder to read. (Plus, I have a lower opinion of people who intentionally make their writing harder to read for no good reason.)

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

MAN I HATE IT WHEN PEOPLE USE SMILIES WHEN THEY ROLEPLAY

Seriously, you're writing, use words to describe how someone feels and don't just leave it at ":D" and call it a day. There's SOME cases where I can forgive it (some roleplays have characters communicating through computers, for example, and silly IM roleplays aren't a big deal), but man, even smilies in dressingroom roleplays grate on my nerves. Then again, in general, it bugs me a lot when people use smilies and such when it's really not appropriate, like if someone makes this heartfelt post about something horrible that just happened in their lives and someone's just like "D: *hugs*". I don't know why that annoys me as much as it does. It just seems so insincere, like they don't really care or anything, you know? Like they're only commenting because they feel like they have to. I've kind of grown to dislike "*hugs*" a little because of that.

UHH BUT MAYBE THAT'S JUST ME that didn't really have anything to do with your comment did it

Yeah, lack of quotation marks bugs me, too. I guess in some cases it adds to the ~*style*~, but most of the time it's just confusing.

[funkicarus.livejournal.com]

fffffffff i agree. when someone just goes *HUGS* it's like...okay, go ahead and just admit that you don't have any emotional investment why doncha. real people react with more than just :( IM SORRY *SNUGS* when they actually care.

i can think of one instance lately where using an emoticon went off okay in our star wars rp. lemme find it.

Kasra just stares at Cial with the greatest dumb look ever.

(Cial OOCs '8B?')
(Kasra OOCs 'LOL')

Cial stops and just stares...back at Kasra, momentarily, before snickering to himself...and finally hitting the lift controls.

Kasra frowns a little. "What's so funny?"

Cial bites down on his knuckle a minute and waves a hand, looking down. "Dude no, dude no, dude, dude, your face? It was all like-"
Cial looks back up, trying to replicate Kasra's 8B? face back at him.


in that case i mean. it's describing a rediculous face. I THINK ITS FAIR TO ATTEMPT A REPLICATION WITH EMOTICONS.

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

First conversations, for me, kind of depend on how the other person types. If they're all wacky then I'll be myself, but if they're the PERFECT GRAMMAR type then I tend to edit myself a lot more and sort of ease into capslock and so on. Of course, there's also times where I'll be silly no matter what and don't care what the other person thinks and if they don't like it then screw them, BUT UH MOST OF THE TIME IT'S THE FORMER

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

See, I type (mostly hurr) correctly on LJ and such, but AIM is where I get a lot more loose and use lowercase and skip on a lot of punctuation and so on. I just sort of figure that what I say over instant messaging isn't going to be on display for the whole Internet or ENGRAVED IN TIME FOREVER so I don't... really care that much. :V OR SOMETHING

I use lol and omg sarcastically, but never seriously :O I do use things like brb and irl and btw and so on, though.

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

See, I actually don't like things like "heh" or "hah" or even "*laughs*". If I make a joke and someone just replies with "heh" then it makes me feel like they think I'm this huge moron or that they're in a bad mood and I'm just annoying them or something. I tend to just go with "XD" or "HAHAHAHAHA," depending. :V

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

I THINK ABOUT THIS SORT OF THING ALL THE TIME, YOU'RE NOT ALONE

I DO THAT WHEN I'M MAKING FUN OF THINGS but yeah, I hate actual fangirl Japanese. Similarly, I hate "cutesy" typing, like when people replace "y" with "eh" and that sort of thing. Seriously, that "TEH KITTEH IS HAPPEH SO KEWLIEZ X3" bullshit makes me want to smack a bitch. YOU'RE NOT BEING FUNNY OR CUTE, SHUT UP

Yeah, I don't go for that, either. I don't go for a lot of anime smilies, come to think of it, though I do use ;_; and *_* sometimes, usually when I'm being sarcastic about something. I have a lot of sarcastic typing habits now that I think about it

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

Honestly--and I know I'm in the minority, here--but I totally agree with you. There's certain situations that call for certain ways of typing, of course (if someone is genuinely upset about something then I'm not going to be like ADKFGHAJDFKGH SORRY OMG), but if I'm having a friendly conversation with someone then I just want to be able relax and pal around, you know?

"lol" doesn't bother me, but "lulz" and "lawl" really do for some reason. though maybe that's just anon rubbing off on me

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

Uhh, I don't think abbreviations are really that big a deal, depending. I dislike things like "sry" and "thx" and "plz", that feels a little rude (though even then there's exceptions, like if someone is dying in an MMO so they bang out HEAL PLZ really quickly since they're in a hurry and are usually trying to do several things at once and skgjhfdg), but "idk" and such don't bother me at all. idk lyk thers alwys xceptins u kno

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

YEAH I KNOW, GOING BY WHAT EVERYONE IS SAYING I PROBABLY COME OFF LIKE THIS FLAPPING RETARD OR SOMETHING KDFJGHKADFHG

Yeah, I mean, I have my tiny pet peeves, but on the whole I really do not care how someone types as long as I can understand them and as long as I can TALK to them and BE MYSELF around them without feeling like everything I say is being heavily scrutinized. Also would my computer stop freezing in the middle of typing jesus christ

[sarshin.livejournal.com]

fffffffffff exactly
there are places and times for big thoughts and proper writing
...
THE INTERNET IS NOT ONE OF THEM

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

GOD I KNOW
Everyone uses it, too, which doesn't help. IT'S LIKE THIS STOCK RESPONSE FOR WHENEVER SOMEONE HAS A PROBLEM

Yeah, that's all right :B It's just stuff like "He shuffled his feet, mumbling 'I don't think Joe likes me very much D:'" that gets annoying. CAN HE PRONOUNCE SMILIES, OR IS THAT SUPPOSED TO BE A FACE HE'S MAKING AS HE SAYS THAT? HOW ABOUT YOU DESCRIBE IT, THEN?

[funkicarus.livejournal.com]

i don't think he likes joe verymuch DEE COLON

[puddinchan.livejournal.com]

...True. As long as it's appropriate.

[roaring-softly.livejournal.com]

Personally, it all depends on who I'm talking to... if it's here on LJ, I tend to use proper caps, etc. and the occasional smiley (although I stay away from a lot of the smilies I used to use... I mostly limit myself to "=D", "XD", and the occasional "=3"). If I'm talking to somebody from school or writing a comment on MySpace (which I almost never use), I don't use smilies and I usually type all lowercase because I don't want to seem arrogant. Although I sometimes type normally; it depends on my mood.

Just a weird habit.

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you mentioned tone, since that's kind of the crux of my whole opinion on the matter.

The way I look at it is this: personally, when I'm having a casual conversation with friends in real life, I'm not going to go out of my way to make sure everything I say is AMAZING and super intelligent and thought-provoking and all that jazz, which, I'm sure, is the case with a lot of people. What I'm interested in when it comes to casual conversation is getting my tone across, bonding, just relating to people without worrying about how I sound, because the main thing is that we're comfortable enough with each other--and ourselves--that that sort of thing doesn't matter to us. This isn't to say that it doesn't matter ALL THE TIME, but see, that's kind of the thing. When it is a big priority, it's usually because the people you're with aren't really friends, but authority figures, or you're doing something where how you sound is important, such as writing an essay, or schmoozing people at some fancy party, or selling something, or something else along those lines. And how you act then never, never reflects who you really are.

On the Internet you can't use your voice, so you have to get your tone across in other ways, which is how I think most people type: with tones. You might use caps when you're being silly (I don't really percieve caps as shouting, but more like that loud, sarcastic tone of voice people use when they're joking around. YOU KNOW), type in lowercase, drop punctuation, use a smiley, change the formatting, use abbreviations, keyboard mash, use text sparkles, whatever you want. The way a sentence is interpreted can be totally changed depending on how you change the "tone."

Which is why, when someone always types perfectly no matter what's happening, most people feel put off. Like in real life, the situations that call for a more serious tone are formal, controlled, where you act a certain way to impress people but it doesn't reflect on your actual personality at all. When you speak in a conversation the same way you speak when writing an English paper then the conversation isn't likely to do much in the way of forming bonds and getting to know one another, because frankly, typing that way all the time makes it seem like you don't HAVE much personality to begin with. It's like instant messaging your teacher or something.

Uhhhhh so I guess what I'm getting at is, yeah, your words on the Internet are a representation of yourself, which is why my typing habits are goofy and informal, hahahaha. 8D ALSO: BE YOURSELF ETC

TYPIN' THIS UP REALLY QUICKLY BEFORE SEEING WHAT I CAN DO WITH SANITARIUM SORRY IF THIS SOUNDS STUPID DKFGJD THROWING MY OWN POINTS TO THE WIND WOO

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

HEY I DO THAT TOO

THE LAST PART

WITH THE LOWERCASE AND THE LACK OF SMILIES

I THOUGHT I WAS THE ONLY ONE :O

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

AND JUST TO CLARIFY I don't think it's bad if someone types well (that would be kind of weird of me), just as long as they can freakin' loosen up every now and then and have a fun conversation about something :V YOU DON'T HAVE TO LOOK SERIOUS ALL THE TIME, IT'S OKAY

[marigold-tales.livejournal.com]

Well, whichever doesn't bother me that much. xD Hahahahah etc works, too, but I was too lazy to type the extra hahas.

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

When it is a big priority, it's usually because the people you're with aren't really friends, but authority figures, or you're doing something where how you sound is important, such as writing an essay, or schmoozing people at some fancy party, or selling something, or something else along those lines.

Yeah, but that's not the only factor. See... grammer, punctuation, all the rest, REALLY have an effect on how easy stuff is to read and how clear it is. And it's even more important on, say, LJ, because someone'll read the whole comment at once. If they misinterpret you can't just interrupt them in the middle and clarify (though you do get a little of that with IM). And you can't see their face to tell if they're confused or taking something the wrong way, and change what you're saying accordingly. Yeah, I'm more casual with friends, but I still want to get my point across clearly.

(I don't really percieve caps as shouting, but more like that loud, sarcastic tone of voice people use when they're joking around. YOU KNOW)

Oh totally. |D It depends on context, though.

...type in lowercase, drop punctuation, use a smiley, change the formatting, use abbreviations, keyboard mash, use text sparkles, whatever you want. The way a sentence is interpreted can be totally changed depending on how you change the "tone."

That's what I'm saying! That's why it makes me cringe to see someone doing that all the time. Because then EVERYTHING THEY WRITE gets that tone and it loses all meaning and art. And you know how if somebody says "fuck" every other sentence, it stops being meaningful and just turns into this stupid verbal tic? And then you can't tell when they actually want to swear, either? It's kind of like that.

And not only is it pretty much sacrificing the tone you can get from that particular tool by using it all the time, but it can be sacrificing other tools, too. There's plenty you can do with English to convey tone (seriously, just look at dialog in novels) but some of it takes fine-tuning to really come across properly... and you can't build a castle in a swamp. It's... limiting. D:

Like in real life, the situations that call for a more serious tone are formal, controlled, where you act a certain way to impress people but it doesn't reflect on your actual personality at all.

Yeah, but you can use grammer and punctuation correctly without being formal. :/ I think that's a needless expansion of the definition of "formal". Some people just want to make sure their writing's easily understood and not annoying to read.

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I don't really see the way someone types during a casual conversation as meaningful or art, just... the way they type. Someone could type entirely in lowercase and what they have to say is no less meaningful than anything else.

Oh, no, I was referring more towards the sort of people who type correctly but are also very... reserved in the way they type, I guess you could say? Never break away from tradition, huge grammar Nazis, everything they say has to be "deep," etc. Like I said, I don't think it's WRONG to type correctly as long as you can loosen up, and as long as I can actually joke around without you rolling your eyes because I use caps or something. It didn't really have anything to do with your comment, admittedly, I was just ranting about something I see a lot dkfjhgdjgh. Maybe I hang around the wrong places :V

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

By art I just mean... oh, skill, making something more than the bare minimum.

and what they have to say is no less meaningful than anything else.

Yeah, but there are plenty of other people who have something meaningful to say and who write in a way that doesn't give me a headache to try to read. *shrug* Fine, if the internet only had a dozen people, it'd be harder to just ignore people--since where else could you go--but as it is, if they can't be bothered to make an effort, then I can't be bothered either.

ETA: And going back to IM I just noticed this but it's only consistent "i" that makes me run screaming for the hills bothers me there, not uncapitalized sentence beginnings... unless those sentences aren't the start of a comment. Post. ARGH I don't know what to call it here I'll just put an example:

person1: here is my sentence
person2: here is my sentence. Here's another one
person3: here is my sentence. here's another one
person4: here is my sentence
person4: here's another one

A SUBTLE DISTINCTION but for some reason the way person3 does it looks so much worse to me. I guess it's because the break between posts (like with person4's) is enough somehow. It kind of... substitutes for normal sentence boundaries.

Oh, I see what you're saying there.

[doxinator.livejournal.com]

Well, I don't really agree with that since I think meaningful things can, have, and will be said without perfect grammar, and those things are still very valuable and worth taking the time to read and, possibly, learn from, but I don't think there's really anything else I can add to that without running around in circles, so :B. LET'S JUST AGREE TO DISAGREE

YOU KNOW I'VE SORT OF NOTICED THAT, though I always thought it was less aesthetically pleasing when the capitalization on the two sentences are different. Like:

this is a sentence. This is a sentence.
This is a sentence. this is a sentence.

It just looks better to me to have them both be the same, I don't know. It doesn't get on my nerves or anything, though :B

[melaniedavidson.livejournal.com]

I'm not saying they're not, necessarily, just that for me it's not worth it to slog through to find out, since I can easily just talk to someone else--and there's at least an equal chance of that other person having something meaningful to say.

Oh yeah, the second one's just terrible and ugly. D: The first one... I don't know; it kind of looks like it's cutting in from something else, if that makes sense. It does look worse without the timestamp and handle in front of it, though.

[roaring-softly.livejournal.com]

CLEARLY YOU THOUGHT WRONG